Hello! I’m on the PR team at CLOViZ Inc.
This time, we’re joined by three University of Tokyo graduates who deliberately chose “unconventional paths” after graduation: Naoya Kihara, a professional poker player; Kochan, a YouTuber and professional mahjong player; and Hiroshi Goto, an entrepreneur.
In this roundtable discussion, we’ll share their challenges, motivations, and views on life after choosing a path that prioritizes “challenge” over “stability.”
1. Why Choose an Unconventional Path? — “Challenge” Over “Stability”
Goto:
— Kihara, why did you become a professional poker player?
Kihara:
To begin with, I was in a situation where I could barely graduate, and I was planning to drop out. But then I discovered poker, and once I could make a living from it, I was able to finish my degree. So it wasn’t so much that I “chose not to take a normal job,” but more that “a normal job was never really an option for me from the start.”
Goto：
— Why did poker help you graduate?
Kihara：
I was working as a cram school tutor, but when you consider the hours and the pay, it was tough to return to university. People often imagine “University of Tokyo tutors make great money,” but in reality it’s not like that at all. Even just covering living expenses is hard, and you have to work long hours.
Since I’m from a science background, I also needed time for research and other work. Realistically, graduating while holding a regular job was basically impossible. But with poker, it was possible. So I thought, if I can do it, I might as well go back and graduate, and I did.
Goto：
— Did your family oppose you becoming a professional poker player?
Kihara：
If I had been living with my parents or relying on them for work, it might have been different. But I lived alone and didn’t receive money from them, so there wasn’t any real opposition. I told them everything after the fact. And even if they had opposed it, I wasn’t going to change my mind, so it never became an issue.
Goto：
— Kochan, why didn’t you go into a regular job?
Kochan：
Quick intro: after graduating, I worked at QuizKnock for about three to four years, then went independent. About six months later, I became a professional mahjong player. Now I do a mix of things like writing quiz questions, appearing on TV, and playing mahjong.
Unlike Kihara, I graduated right away. I also earned a junior high and high school teaching license, and up until around my third year, I thought, “I’ll become a teacher.” I was planning to apply to private high schools in Tokyo. I’ve always liked teaching, so that felt like the right path.
But around that time, QuizKnock started getting popular, and I thought, “Since I have this opportunity, I’ll work here for a while.” If I ever want to become a teacher again in the future, I’ll think about it then.
Kihara said he told his parents after the fact, and I’m the same. We’re close and talk about a lot, but when it comes to career decisions, I always reported afterward. My parents did say things like, “Why not work at a big company?” but I just brushed it off (laughs). They suggested things, but they never forced me.
Kochan：
— Goto, why didn’t you take a corporate job?
Goto：
Quick intro: while I was in university, I appeared on a quiz TV show called Todai-O for about three and a half years. Since last year, I’ve been running a company whose main business is a private tutoring service. I’m also a board member at CLOViZ, the company developing POKER Q’z.
I started a business because I found a high-variance life more appealing than joining a big company and living a stable life.
Also, my father told me from middle school, “Take risks while you’re young.” His idea was that once you have a family, it becomes harder to take risks, so you should do it early.
My mother is more conservative and said, “Isn’t a big company better?” But in the end, she respected my decision.
I live with my parents and they provide housing, but they’ve never forced anything on me, and I’m very grateful. That’s why I want to take risks now, challenge myself, and if I succeed, repay them properly.
2. What Are the Benefits of Working at a Big Company? — Doing Work at a Scale Individuals Can’t Match
Goto：
— What do you think are the advantages of working at a large corporation?
Kihara：
The biggest advantage is being able to move businesses worth tens of billions of yen. It’s hard for an individual to operate at that scale, and it’s even harder to build up to it. In a big company, even if you generate profit, some of it gets absorbed by the company rather than becoming your salary. Still, the chance to work on massive projects is very appealing.
3. The Real Downsides of Being a Pro Poker Player or Pro Mahjong Player — “Low Credibility” and “Unstable Income”
Goto：
— With the way we work, we can have lower social credibility and it can be harder to borrow money. Have you ever felt that downside?
Kihara：
Absolutely. I couldn’t pass the screening for the rental guarantor company where I live now, so the lease is under my wife’s name. At my previous place, it was under my name, but when I moved, the guarantor company changed and I didn’t pass. That said, I did get approved for a home loan even as a pro poker player (laughs).
Goto：
Are there other downsides you’ve felt because you chose this path, like pro poker, pro mahjong, or media work?
Kochan：
My income changes a lot month to month, so sometimes I think, “This month is going to be tight.” I wouldn’t say it’s completely unstable, but nothing guarantees a fixed paycheck, so it’s definitely a downside.
Kihara：
In my case, it’s not just that money doesn’t come in. Some months my net results are negative. That can happen with stock prices dropping, and in poker you can run negative over several months in total. Losing money while you’re “working” is very different from a normal job. But if you can win at a certain level, your long-term hourly rate is still high.
That said, as the global skill level keeps rising, you can lose ability as you get older, or your improvement slows down. If you can’t keep up, you might not be able to make a living anymore. That’s the biggest downside.
Goto：
— You’ve been investing seriously for the last two to three years, right? Is that also preparation for the future?
Kihara：
Not at all. I just treat it like a fun game.
4. Being Strong Isn’t Enough to Make a Living — What It Takes to Survive as a Pro
Goto：
— What do you think about working as a pro mahjong player and appearing on shows? A lot of people are interested, but many hesitate because of long-term instability.
Kihara：
Basically, I think being a “pro mahjong player” is closer to a certification than a job. It’s like a hobby circle with a skill cutoff to join. If you reach the very top, it can become a real career, but for most people, “pro mahjong” isn’t actually a profession.
In that sense, it’s a world where you can chase a dream, but it’s not easy to make a living in a realistic way.
Kochan：
I agree. Making a living as a pro mahjong player isn’t just about “being strong.” You have to think about how you’re going to build your activities and career.
For pro shogi or pro go, dedicating yourself to the game is itself a viable path. If you win, your income increases, and the competition functions as a profession. But in mahjong, even if you’re “pretty good,” it’s hard to live on that alone. That’s why how you brand and produce yourself becomes important.
That said, recently the value of teaching mahjong has been rising, pay has improved, and the barrier to entry has gotten lower.
Goto：
Entrepreneurship is similar. In the past, it was like, “You need 10 million yen in capital,” or “If your company fails, people will judge you forever.” But those hurdles have dropped a lot.
Capital requirements have been relaxed, and even if your first startup fails, society is more open to you trying again. In fact, more companies now value the experience of having started a business and failed.
The worlds of pro mahjong and pro poker are the same. Compared to the past, the environment keeps changing. It feels like we’re in an era where it’s easier to challenge what you want to do.
Kochan：
In the past, people who lived freely like us were often seen coldly as “unstable.” But recently, I think the mood has shifted to “This is also a valid way to live.”
At the same time, the relative value of getting a job at a decent company has gone down, and more people think, “Even if you get hired, there’s still risk.” Maybe we’re entering an era where no path guarantees safety.
5. Advice for People Who Want to Go Pro in Poker, Go Pro in Mahjong, or Start a Business — “If You’re Hesitating, Should You Stop? Or Just Start Moving?”
Goto：
— Finally, do you have any advice for people who want to become a pro poker player like you but hesitate, or people who want to become a pro mahjong player or do on-camera work but can’t take the first step?
Kihara：
Honestly, if you’re already hesitating, I think you should stop.
I’ve said that poker is something like “one in a thousand” can make a living from, but even if you can make a living now, that doesn’t mean it will last forever. Even if you can do it at 25, you still need to be able to do it at 50 or 60. For that, you need both a reserve of skill and a reserve of money.
When you think about it that way, I don’t think it’s enough to be in the top one in a thousand. You probably need to be in the top one in ten thousand. And that level isn’t something you reach through effort alone. People who think, “I need to work hard,” generally aren’t suited for it. If you’re conscious of “trying hard,” you’re usually done for. So if you’re hesitating, it might be better not to do it.
Kochan：
As a pro mahjong player, I’d be genuinely happy if more people played mahjong, so I want everyone to try it.
But “making a living from it” is a different story. I think what matters is the confidence at the foundation of how you live.
For example, even if I completely stopped appearing in media in the future and quit pro mahjong activities, I’m confident I could still live. That confidence comes from what I’ve studied and the experience I’ve built up.
So instead of asking, “Can I live off this?” if you have the confidence that “I can survive no matter what happens,” then I think it’s worth trying.
For instance, I have a teaching license, so if things get tough, I can work as a teacher. Skills and strengths like that build confidence. Even if someone asks me for advice, I can’t guarantee, “You’ll be fine.” So I think it’s important to have an honest conversation with yourself and decide.
That said, I’m truly having fun in this world, and if I hadn’t become a pro mahjong player, I don’t think I would have met Goto or Kihara. Because I happened to choose this path, I met people I wouldn’t have otherwise. That makes me feel like I’m living a really good life. So yes, I think trying it is a valid option.
Goto：
As for starting a business, like I said earlier, the environment makes it easier to take risks than it used to. So if you’re hesitating, I think it’s best to try once, ideally while you’re still young.
Even if you fail, you can start over. If you realize it’s not for you, you can choose to get a job at a company. And more companies now value the experience of failing at a startup, so you can use that experience in your career.
Personally, I work almost seven days a week right now, and whenever I have free time, I’m basically working. But I’m still enjoying it. I’m glad I did it.
So if you’re hesitating, I think you should take action that very day and start moving.
